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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks - the rant was awesome –
this has been extremely helpful.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Here are responses to some of your
questions:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>How many documents do you have?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[AG] Approximately 75,000 pages of unique
content. Since we are using Akamai, we would not need to cache static assets
(images, static html files, css, javascript, etc) only pages rendered by the
CMS (see below). We plan on using ESI to support dynamic portions of the pages.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Is your backend good?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[AG] We’re using an open source CMS
(Concrete5). This CMS features very flexible UI manipulation tools, but I
believe like all of these CMS systems there is a price to pay for flexibility,
and this is usually in performance. Because the database schemas cannot be
optimized to support a specific data types, they generally do not perform as
well. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Like most CMS systems, there is caching at
the application layer – or we can use memCache – but it seems the
complexity of implementing these caches are higher than putting Varnish in
front. Additionally, these caches do not support anything nearly as elegant as
saint mode – particularly when used in combination with ESI.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So, the answer for the purposes of this discussion
is – not bad but not good enough that we can use it comfortably without
caching. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>How much traffic is backend seeing?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[AG] Peak traffic is about 150-200/requests
per second<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Does backend scale good/cheap?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[AG] We are using Xen virtualization and
we have a fair amount of capacity on our data center, so scaling out is not
hard and/or expensive.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What's your budget?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[AG] We already have our own data center
so the incremental costs would be not be high. This is a new project so the
cost would be rolled into the budget for the project.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What hardware do you have/plan on getting?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>[AG] We have 24 HP BL460c blades with 24
GB of RAM each. We are using Xen virtualization on most blades. We could
dedicate two blades to Varnish in an HA setup, but this would create a single
point of failure (even HA can fail).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I was thinking we would probably have
multiple Varnish HA clusters running on Xen Vms, one in support of each app or
split out using the hashing method on the load balancers that others have been
suggesting here.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
varnish-misc-bounces@varnish-cache.org
[mailto:varnish-misc-bounces@varnish-cache.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>thebog<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October 21, 2010
7:39 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> varnish-misc@varnish-cache.org<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Fwd: infrastructure setup
using ESI</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Oppss, forgot to include
the list.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>thebog</span></b> <<a
href="mailto:thebog@gmail.com">thebog@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 1:38 AM<br>
Subject: Re: infrastructure setup using ESI<br>
To: "Gresens, August" <<a href="mailto:AGresens@scholastic.com">AGresens@scholastic.com</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I'll try and give some advice in general terms. You are asking if this
rope is long enuff, and that question has no good answer :)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Varnish is "most often" used close to the client (in front or
behind loadbalancer). A main reason is that it handles alot of webtraffic good
and cheap. This is where it's written to shine. But it shines in other layers
as well. depending on what you are trying to do:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Varnish works good in front of crappy backend, because it's
easy/flexible (configurationwise) to reduce/shape traffic to backend.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>If your hot dataset is huge, you will need much RAM, and there the
budget kicks in. Some people dream of 64 GB RAM, some buy it by default, and
for some 64 GB is such a little part of the dataset that it really does not
help much. While others have a dataset where 4 GB RAM is more than enuff, so
it's cheap to do it. For some it does not matter in if there are separate
cached copy's, because it's free, so why not. For some it does. Hard to answer
:) So are the secondary requests to the backend.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>With Varnish you can manipulate HTTP headers that otherwise does not
make sense because you have a backend you can not tweak to get what you want
(Or this is more expensive than using Varnish). Some use Varnish in front of
many different backend systems, some use it in front of crappy closed source
backends. Many find VCL (Varnish configuration laguage) to be really good and
easy (some don't bother ever to learn it because they don't need it), I can't
think of many scenarios where you can't get VCL to do what ever you'd
like with HTTP and to some extent most of the HTTP traffic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>So I would use Varnish where I have much traffic, where I need to
reduce traffic, and where I would like to shape traffic if I had to. It's a
tool, when you learn how to use it, you know when it makes sense to use it. And
it can be used many places in the stack.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I would also not install anything other than a 64 bit OS. And focus on
getting the right amount of RAM. As much as possible is always a good start :)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Hope this answered some of your questions :) Sorry for the rant.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>YS<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Anders Berg<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:14 PM, Gresens, August <<a
href="mailto:AGresens@scholastic.com" target="_blank">AGresens@scholastic.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>
<div>
<div>
<div link=blue vlink=purple>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Hello</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Varnish is a
key part of a new set of apps we are building - the ESI feature in particular
is something we want to take advantage of extensively.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Where does
Varnish typically reside in the network architecture? I would imagine in a
scenario in which we would be using ESI, we would want Varnish in front of the
application load balancers. In this way, Varnish would be the primary page
assembler. We would likely run an HA setup for fault tolerance.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>We were also
considering if Varnish could be used much farther downstream – in between
the load balancer and the application. We thought is might provide for more
fault tolerance, but it seems the disadvantage would be that there would be a
separate cached copy in each redundant varnish instance, and with ESI secondary
requests would be made back out to the same web server potentially, setting up
a feed back loop that could cause problems.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Thanks for
your responses in advance.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>August</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=1 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>August
Gresens<br>
<font color=black><span style='color:black'>Director of Technology, eScholastic</span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=1 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'>Scholastic Inc.<br>
557 Broadway, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">NY</st1:City>, <st1:State
w:st="on">NY</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">10012</st1:PostalCode></st1:place></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=1 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:black'>Email :: <a href="mailto:agresens@scholastic.com" target="_blank"><font
color=black><span style='color:black'>agresens@scholastic.com</span></font></a><br>
Phone :: 917 363 3662</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>
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target="_blank">http://lists.varnish-cache.org/mailman/listinfo/varnish-misc</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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